Tim Callahan and Chad Nevett are blogging about Mainstream Comics Being Increasingly Lame (Or Is It Just Them). It may be just them, but if it is, then it is just me too.
Tim says "I was easily reading 25-30 comics a week in 2008, I'm down to 8-10 a week right now." Well I used to read 4-6 comics a week and now I am down to one -- Morrison's Batman -- that I am getting, not be cause I like it, but because Morrison-Stewart and Morrison-Quitely have enough capital built up with me that I sort of owe them at this point. But just barely. Oh, and I get Detective Comics because the JH Williams art is awesome, but I also have this bad habit of just forgetting to buy it, which I supposed speaks to my involvement being minimal. It is the kind of thing I would like to admire in a nice hardcover. Because I am not invested in the story, only the art, I was never really "hooked," though I will eventually get every issue.
Tim writes
Maybe it's the Morrison lull that I'm feeling -- or we're all feeling -- with the giddiness of "Final Crisis" and "Batman" being replaced in recent months with the atrocity of the most recent "Batman and Robin" arc. I'll take Tony Daniel over Philip Tan any day, if I were forced to make such a choice. Or maybe it's the kind of events we're seeing now compared to last year. I don't think "Blackest Night" is aesthetically worse than "Secret Invasion," but Bendis's event comic at least sparked plenty of discussion. With "Blackest Night," the conversation amounts to, "who's going to come back as a zombie next?" And even though you may or may not enjoy the series -- I do, and you don't -- nobody seems to care about the answer to that question. And justifiably so.
It's diminishing returns.
I did not even like Batman (which was a mess with no ending) and I only liked Final Crisis in theory. For me, this kind of collapse started a long time ago, back when Seven Soldiers fizzled and Planetary started to go wrong and Morrison dropped The Authority after a great start and WildCATS before he could do anything. And I was mad Civil War was a waste of time (Cap just suddenly gives up because he knows it is issue seven), and that House of M was so bad (MAGIC!), and that World War Hulk was declawed (Tony Stark did not do anything wrong after all -- it was a big bug monster who killed Hulk's family). Frank Miller's Batman never got off the ground. I stopped laughing at Mark stuff like Wanted and Kickass. I read all of Claremont's pre 1991 X Men stuff but then when X-Men Forever started I was just sort of bored.
Between the ages of 15 and 20 I read all the X-Men books for five years -- right after Claremont left: Age of Apocalypse, and Generation X and Onslaught, and Stryfe. Then I matured by moving beyond the brand and to the writers. I was in a new decade and the shift made sense. Suddenly I did not care who the hero was: I wanted Morrison's JLA, Miller's Batman and anything by Alan Moore. And I just couldn't invest in the X-Men like I used to.
The thing is I am in a new decade NOW. I am 30. (Chad, Tim -- your ages?). And I am hoping that it is just a coincidence that I cannot invest in the stories now because the market is bad because maybe movies or Big Events or something are temporarily screwing up the field, sucking talent away or making editorial more important than writers. I mean I loved All Star Superman and Casanova but right now they feel like my send off. That was the high note and it is time to stop showing up on Wednesdays. Cause those two books were the whole point of the whole thing. For now I wait, and hope that something better comes along, in the worlds of Rolf and Kermit
In the meantime here is what I would like:
I would like Image Comics to figure out how to make Fraction / Ba / Moon's Casanova super-profitable so those guys never have to do anything again.
I would like DC to get Frank Miller back on Batman and just publish any insane idea he has on the subject. And screw making money on that one. Frank Miller just deserves it. Hell -- give him the character. Like the Rights.
I would like DC to get Morrison and Quitely on anything other than Batman because that character's history -- Frank Miller in particular -- is fucking up the best team in comics.
Morrison and Cameron Stewart should do Seaguy just whenever they want.
Marvel needs to find a writer for Chris Bachalo and DC needs one for JH Williams. Someone NEW. Or someone from another medium. Something with a real thrust to it. Forward momentum. This LOST thing is ending -- maybe someone from there is rich enough to not care comics don't pay that much.
And while I am wishing for things that will never happen -- I think David Mamet should write a Batman movie.
Done.
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33 comments:
I was looking at Secret Invasion the other night - that thing was fucking awful. I like Bendis's Avengers, but in hindsight it started sucking precisely at the point Secret Invasion started. (Dark Avengers is pretty good - Bachalo drew the entire recent annual Geoff, but it is not so good writing-wise and kind of poops all over a Morrison character, so it might upset you.)
Secret Invasion sucking so bad kind of makes me love Final Crisis by default, and I'm getting into Morrison's Batman. (I'm about to read the prose issue - wish me luck!)
(Is Batman the only character/idea dominated by a single creator for you, Geoff? I'm sure you've described - paraphrasing heavily - the endless variety of possible approaches to material as one of the strengths of supercomics, and yet Miller instantly shuts down any other Batmen for you. Can you conceive of a satisfying post-Miller Batman?)
There definitely seems to be more good art in superheroes at the moment than writing - and hardly tons of that, either. I'm all trades from this point out, the magazines are too expensive.
I seem to remember you said kind things about Bone, Geoff, maybe try the first book of Jeff Smith's RASL? I liked that a lot.
I think I've got more to say on this (basically 'ever thus') but for now I'll just say that it's fortunate indie and alternative comics are pretty great at the moment.
It is funny that - given the expertise with how he handled the character in his JLA run - Batman seems to be the character that Morrison has stumbled with. I wouldn't necessarily put this down to Miller to the extent that Geoff does, but I will agree that it suffers by comparison.
I do think the Quitely issues were quality though, it's just frustrating that the momentum was immediately killed.
I'm 26, soon to be 27 at the end of January... I believe Tim is around ten years older than I am.
Mostly, I just want something new to get excited about -- something I haven't thought of yet, something that catches me off guard and makes me sit up and go "Wow!"
Frankencastle? (Haven't read it, but it looks like a hoot.)
I've been feeling the same thing, Geoff. I haven't been to the comic shop in several months and I'm starting to feel guilty about it. Not because I miss the books - but because I know there are comics in my box that I promised to buy and now suddenly find myself not caring. There are a few indie gems that spark my interest from time to time. Although I'm behind on both - I always enjoy Walking Dead and Invincible. Warren Ellis has kept my interest with his uber cynical superhero spins in Black Summer, No Hero and hopefully the upcoming Super God. Mark Waid's Irredeemable is interesting as well. The only mainstream book I really cared for over the past year was Captain Britain and the MI 13 - but it's nothing groundbreaking. It's just fun - or rather it was fun - seeing as how it was canceled months ago.
**Streebo
Getting bored with mainstream Wednesday comics is nothing new.
Embrace it, there's so much more to read.
There's so much good stuff for me to catch up! It helps if there's something exciting in your private life, too, but that's not the subject.
I've been meaning to check out the buzz on Incredible Hercules or Fantastic Four...it's a trek, passing Borders to reach the nearest shop in any direction.
No one's doing anything inspired by Iran, or Afghanistan, are they? Does that simply require new concepts? Is anyone tapping into the private side of the characters and touching upon topics at present? Are we due a shift from the universal (subject of great mainstream comics in recent years) to the specific (something for which indies seem better suited?)
Somewhere between the crest and the trough, you will find your peace. I stopped reading comics in 1994, started again six months ago. My verdict:
Wow, comics have gotten better!
Wow, comics still suck!
It's not the comics. It's you.
"I did not even like Batman (which was a mess with no ending) and I only liked Final Crisis in theory. "
Both were better than his JLA stuff (which was really more of a exercise in style more than substance imo)
The Batman ending worked as a postmodern detective story without a detecting ending, an exercise in the ambiguity of real life.
Morrison's Superman All Star was a big yawner for me, it was like, hey look, its Superman, but with pointless mythological references. Supreme- lite.
You want more Frank Miller Batman? Ok... you seem to be the only one who thinks his recent stuff wasn't a complete train wreck.
I'd say its you with Morrison, maybe not the other stuff
I gotta agree with Pallas. I don't know how anyone can defend All-Star Batman. And this coming from a guy who loved The Dark Knight Strikes Again from the very beginning. Frank Miller dove straight into crazy town about 2 years ago. The Spirit was an abomination and thank god "Holy Terror Batman" got shelved. Morrison's Batman isn't great either (I'm actually considering dropping Batman and Robin), but that's mainly because his tone is pretty far removed from what I want in a Bat-book.
All in all, I would have to agree that we are in a down period. This is the first time since 2000 that I haven't bought at least one X-Title. Fraction just can't bring his usual touch to them and they are really hamstrung by M-Day.
It seemed like 2000-2005 had new, great stuff coming out on a weekly basis, but then everything shifted over to line-wide events and fatigue has settled in. Maybe the companies need to go bankrupt again.
three points
1)Anonymous said:
"Somewhere between the crest and the trough, you will find your peace. I stopped reading comics in 1994, started again six months ago."
I really think there is something to this. I'm 28 and feel like Im in a similar situation. We become over-saturated and then a "banal-ification" of the epic story-telling sets in. So since the comics-companies moved to all-huge-events-all-the-time instead of cycling between the large and small, we ourselves have to create our own cycle, of moving away and then moving toward.
Personally, I stopped buying the action-adventure stuff, because I felt like these comics stories were the kind that I only wanted "to rent" rather than buy. So I looked toward more personal-poetic projects for a while like kevin huizenga's "or else" and anders nilsen's "big questions". But the same cycle set in even for the small idiosyncratic stories. It makes me spoend more time with my own artwork, and analyzing my own mundane family history wondering if my personal story shouldnt be just as interesting as all the crap that Im reading...
2) But I think there's other things going on too: I think that the level of intellectual analysis also plays a part in making us bigger "snobs" When people like Jason and Geoff do such excellent jobs of breaking things down, and showing how they work, it just sets the bar higher for there to be less obvious use of tropes and more subtle construction. And I think the internet plays a big part in creating a higher level of
conversation. It reminds me that I read an amazing analysis of the two matrix sequels, that showed what it was "really trying to say". I came a way thinking that if the movies had actually been as thoughtful as the review maybe the movie would have been more exciting.
3) but then again in the last ten years I got married and had a kid and became even more money-consious... So now, I barely follow any of these comics in the sense of "buying" the issues or the trades. When it comes to TV, nothing really calls out to me for appointment like LOST did. But i follow all the x-men titles and shows like Flashforward and Smallville, in the most removed way possible. I get my fix just by reading summaries and reviews online. Its kind of like one step removed from waiting for the trade. I get to hear about the high concepts, but I dont have to sit through the poor executions. So I think this is also connected to the flourishing of the online world.
"The thing is I am in a new decade NOW. I am 30. (Chad, Tim -- your ages?). And I am hoping that it is just a coincidence that I cannot invest in the stories now..."
Speaking as a 31-year-old, I would bet millions of dollars that it is no coincidence.
Personally, I'm moving on. By my calculation, the Claremont blog will end roughly concurrently with my 32nd birthday. Starting then, comics and I, we're done.
I'm not sure it's age, personally. I'm 37, Chad's 26, you're 30. It's maybe a little bit of the age thing, and a whole lot of the unfulfilled promise of this decade of comics, as you say.
Still, I read a few comics every week that I love. But between the stuff I love and the rest of the stuff there's a big gap in quality.
James -- no, you are right. We should have multiple creators on Batman. But for me Miller is dominant, and he crushes other creators, whose work becomes perverted in his shadow. I would LOVE for someone to knock him out of the park, but I can't imagine what it would look like.
Streebo: I need to pick up those ellis books
Pallas -- I wrote a whole essay in a Batman book about All Star Batman and how it was tricky and great, and there are some folks I like who like it as well. (Chad? Tim? I can't remember).
I'm also a big fan of All-Star Batman and Robin, the Boy Wonder (and 21st-century Frank Miller in general). My thoughts on the first hardcover where it came out (as I'm reading the series that way): http://graphicontent.blogspot.com/2008/09/book-of-week-3-all-star-batman-and.html
"Personally, I'm moving on. By my calculation, the Claremont blog will end roughly concurrently with my 32nd birthday. Starting then, comics and I, we're done."
See, this just makes no sense to me. Does anyone every say that about music, movies, books, or tv? Sure, we might all lament the fact that each of those mediums might not be pushing our buttons at the time, but to just disregard it? I don't get it, and I really don't get this notion that comics aren't good now. I have no problem finding things I want to read. Granted, I'm not a monthly comic reader, but whenever I go to the library, I can easily check out 5 trades. Do they all work for me? Nope, but that doesn't change the fact that my interest is still there. And to be honest, I don't see that changing.
I'm 28 going on 29 btw.
I think we're definitely in a temporary downturn for superhero comics, which was probably a victim of their own success. DC and Marvel have both been doing pretty well for a while, but I a lot of the indie talent that infused their books with so much energy back in the Nu-Marvel Jemas era, and the DC response to that have written so many books that we're aware of their tricks. It used to be exciting to have Bendis on a mainstream book, now it's tiring. Geoff Johns may keep doing his thing, but he's not doing anything radically new.
And, new writers like Fraction who rose up quickly through the ranks have largely wound up writing pretty conservative, unremarkable books. What I've read of Fraction's Iron Man and X-Men has been alright, but it doesn't have the sense of dynamic purpose that made Grant Morrison's JLA or New X-Men so exciting. He's writing the corporate property, not making it his own.
Combine that with a wait for the trade shift that means most people only pick up in monthlies the biggest event books if anything at all, and it's hard for comics to gather any sort of buzz. For me personally, I loved Final Crisis and Batman, but even Batman and Robin hasn't had the same addictive quality as the RIP era stuff, it's good most of the time, but not as revelatory and exciting as R.I.P.
But, I think a lot of the sense of ennui, and the idea of people abandoning comics while they don't abandon TV comes down to the idea that Tim discussed in his Words Collide column on Monday, that the corporate superhero comics are one single narrative, endlessly being retold and expanded upon. So, you can feel a sense of exhaustion with the DCU or Marvel as a whole that doesn't exist in TV. Sure, there's a lot of other non-DCU comics out there, but most people who talk about dropping comics talk about it in that context.
That shared universe feeling can help books gain momentum, as when New X-Men altered the status quo of the entire X-Men line, and led to books like X-Force, or a bad event like M-Day can drag it all down.
More Morrison in the DCU would definitely help revive things, but ultimately it's going to be the new voices who revive interest. Maybe that'll be the Fractions or Jason Aarons, maybe it'll be someone else.
And I'd second the idea that reading stuff from the library makes you a lot more tolerant of a book's failings than when you pay $15 for 60-90 minutes worth of entertainment.
Pallas: Another vote for late Miller-Batman over here. I was gonna say down to Ping and Geoff, but actually I thought All-Star was great from the get-go. DK2 I hadn't read until Geoff posted about it, so probably he put me in a receptive mood for the material.
""Personally, I'm moving on. By my calculation, the Claremont blog will end roughly concurrently with my 32nd birthday. Starting then, comics and I, we're done."
See, this just makes no sense to me. Does anyone every say that about music, movies, books, or tv? Sure, we might all lament the fact that each of those mediums might not be pushing our buttons at the time, but to just disregard it? I don't get it, and I really don't get this notion that comics aren't good now. I have no problem finding things I want to read. Granted, I'm not a monthly comic reader, but whenever I go to the library, I can easily check out 5 trades. Do they all work for me? Nope, but that doesn't change the fact that my interest is still there. And to be honest, I don't see that changing."
As recently as two years ago, I didn't see it changing either. But changed it has.
And yeah, I gave up on TV a while back as well, although that has more to do with just not owning a television. I still watch shows on DVD, via my laptop.
Patrick's point about the library is good -- he suggested that to me before when I talked about dropping comics. 'Cause it's true, a big part of comics that works against them is the cost. It's really too much these days, considering what little you get when you break it down.
Just my opinion. I'm not suggesting anyone else drop comics completely. Though I can't tell you how much I'm looking forward to it.
I recently cut down my comic buying to get the cost to under $30 a month (getting a second Master's, buying a house, and having a baby) - basically, no events, no crossovers, and no $3.99 books - and only my favorite books (scalped, Herc, X-Factor, Secret Warriors). And all I could think was - man, I'm gonna be totally out of the loop. I'm missing all the big stuff. Then it occured to me - none of that was considered "essential" to me, but I felt the need to get it anyway. Half the time, I buy this stuff out of sheer addicition.
As a sidenote, one thing that makes it easy to give up comics is that I became utterly disgusted (disproportionately so, probably) with DC after the way they handled "Top Ten Season Two." It was such a massive FU to the fans, I couldn't believe it.
What happened with Top Ten Season 2?
"And yeah, I gave up on TV a while back as well, although that has more to do with just not owning a television. I still watch shows on DVD, via my laptop."
Right, but that isn't giving up on "TV" though. Sure, maybe you aren't watching things live as they air, but you're still watching TV shows.
Saying you don't watch TV, but watch seasons on DVD, is like saying you don't read comics, but I you do read trades, or you don't watch movies, but you do watch movies on dvd. It's a semantics game, but it's all the same thing to me. I can see not liking the delivery of some of those (the monthly, going to the theater, watching tv shows with commercials), but the thing is the thing.
I still don't get giving up on a medium entirely, especially one as rich as comics, but it doesn't make sense to stick with it if it isn't scratching your itch.
Similar things going on, though: I am not planning on getting rid of my old comics, I'm just not going to buy new ones.
By the same token, I am not getting into new TV shows, but am keeping the DVDs that I own of old ones.
Ultimately, it is just down to how I want to spend my time. I get too little done when I am too into TV and comics. I'm sure once I'm at a place in my life where time and money are not so scarce, I'll get back into these hobbies again.
Or, maybe not. I don't know. At the moment, I don't miss this stuff. If anything, I am trying to find ways to further simplify.
Matt, DC solicited Top Ten Season 2 as a four-issue miniseries. The fourth issue ended with a cliffhanger. Then they released a "special" fifth issue. Which proceeded to not resolve any of the plot threads from the mini.
Then Zander Cannon revealed on his blog that the full Season 2 was plotted as an eight-issue story, plus two specials. But DC decided they would only release the first half of that set, to test the waters. And both they and apparently all the creative personnel decided, hey, just for kicks, let's not tell anyone that we might not ever publish (or, for that matter, even create) the back half of the story. We'll just solicit the thing as a four-issue series. And Cannon, on his blog, said that there was never any deception intended, and asked that people not go on message boards accusing DC of "bait and switch," because that kind of antagonism is "no way to get them to publish the rest of the story."
Indeed, Zander, indeed. God forbid that I offend them.
Galling. Haven't bought a DC comic since, and don't plan to.
"Pallas -- I wrote a whole essay in a Batman book about All Star Batman and how it was tricky and great, and there are some folks I like who like it as well. (Chad? Tim? I can't remember)."
You are certainly allowed to like All Star Batman and Robin- I'm kind of indifferent myself, it seems like a parody to me, but very possibly an unintentional one. I'm not really interested in buying a book about Batman so I guess I won't see the essay.
I think you are in the minority, though, in liking it. Miller made the Spirit movie around the same time, correct? At 15% on rotten tomatoes, it seems to indicate a lot of folks think he's become a self parody of himself.
I don't see why you think Morrison's Batman is in Miller's shadow, though. Aside from being dark... it seemed like it was very Morrison to me.
The Black Glove stuff repeated a lot of symbolism from Fantastic Four 1234, with the villian as an aspect of the hero's personality, even the multiple personality red herring was similar to the red herring of Reed being Doom as a result of a magic ritual ritual.
The time changing surreal stuff in Batman's near death experience was similar to Fanny's in the Invisibles, amost a complete rewrite, actually.
The imaginary friend- Bat-mite- probably at least harkens back to Morrison meta ficiton stuff.
There doesn't seem to be a gay subtext with the Joker like in Miller.
I lot of the villian references seem to be Victorian crime novels, which doesn't seem to be of interest to Miller.
There's a lot of altered state of conscousness stuff with Batman's meditation, which, maybe was sort of in Dark Knight, but, I think is also a classic Morrison theme, see Fantastic Four 1234, for example again, with Reed stretching his brain.
Not really sure where you are coming from- aside from liking Miller more.
Pallas – if you’re not sure where Geoff is coming from with Miller, I recommend the posts on the Grotesque in All Star Batman and The Dark Knight Strikes Again. Also - the tags provide more discussion on All Star Batman on an issue by issue basis. Fun stuff.
(Geoff, sorry to dredge up posts past - the DKSA post is three years old! Hopefully they're still valid in re your thinking on Miller and All Star. For my money it's posts like these that made me stick around here to begin with.)
"I think you are in the minority, though, in liking it. Miller made the Spirit movie around the same time, correct? At 15% on rotten tomatoes, it seems to indicate a lot of folks think he's become a self parody of himself."
Whoa, a lot of logic leaps there. I haven't seen The Spirit, but I can certainly imagine disliking it as much as I like All-Star Batman and Robin. Miller's success as a filmmaker is not the same as/dependent on Miller's success as a cartoonist.
As for Geoff's thoughts on why Morrison is in Miller's shadow, you can refer to pretty much any post he's made regarding an issue from Morrison's run - the Morrison's Batman label looks to have you covered. Happy reading!
(or comic-writer; cartoonist only applies to DK2, I suppose)
You guys are kee-razy. There are still plenty of good superhero comics coming out from Jeff Parker (Agents of ATLAS, Thunderbolts), Rick Remender, Jason Aaron (Wolverine: Weapon X, Ghost Rider), Matt Fraction (X-men & Iron Man), Kieron Gillen (S.W.O.R.D., Thor, Beta Ray Bill mini, Dark Reign: Ares), Fred Van Lente (Incredible Hercules, Marvel Zombies 3 & 4, the upcoming second Iron Man series, and a ton of minis and Marvel Ages stuff), Dan Slott (Avengers: The Initiative and Mighty Avengers), Jonathan Hickman (Nick Fury: Agent of Nothing and SHIELD), Andy Diggle (Thunderbolts, Daredevil) and that's just from the "young" writers at the Marvel side of things. (Not even going to bring up "veterans" like Ellis and Brubaker.)
I'm not as up-to-date on my DC stuff, but I'm sure I'd be able to find it. And a great many of these writers have excellent creator-owned stuff as well.
It's there. You just haven't noticed it yet.
But this goes back to what Patrick and Tim were saying, that all those corporate books are connected, and it's hard just to get a nice, fun book that isn't feeding into and/or being fed into by something that one either doesn't care about or actively hates.
I tried to get into "Agents of Atlas" 'cause I loved the original mini, but right from the start there's the stink of "Dark Reign" over the top of it, something that doesn't interest me at all.
And I am very very tired of Wolverine -- really don't ever need to see a new comic with that guy -- but there he is, constantly popping up in "Agents of Atlas." (Now that the core "AoA" book is cancelled, the first thing Marvel did was do an "Agents of Atlas/X-Men" crossover. Was Wolverine in that? I'm guessin' he was.)
But of course, if Agents of Atlas was self-contained, it would've been cancelled even faster than it already was. It's lose-lose. It was too bad -- I like Parker's writing quite a bit and I loved those characters, but gah, enough with this everything-is-connected crap. It is the same thing that turned me off in the 90s.
Jason - Aaron's Ghost Rider is a good fun thing, away from Dark Reign entirely and is good fun in the same way Fraction and Brubaker's Iron Fist was.
Christian - it's not that - in my case anyway - I haven't noticed those books. I've been a fan of Parker and Van Lente from the Marvel Adventures days and enjoy they're stuff - good solid super-hero storytelling, not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm also a fan of Fraction's Iron Man and Pak and Van Lente's Hercules as well. And Scalped is great. Marvel's cosmic books have also been pretty enjoyable, if nothing extraordinary. Brubaker's stuff is good longrange storytelling, but it's all getting a bit dour.
It's just that these are good, fun books but for me there's not the excitement of, say, at the start of the decade, when you could get Morrison's Marvel Boy, Miller's TDKSA, Moore's ABC Comics and the tail end of Ellis's Transmet run pretty much all at the same time.
Having said that, the indie/alternative side of things is in much better shape now than perhaps I've ever known it. Picturebox Press are putting out some great books, Powell's The Goon has had a good year, and you still get annual Ware and Love and Rockets books (as well as loads more Gilbert Hernandez solo stuff recently). There's stuff to be had, for sure.
But the main super-hero landscape just isn't exciting. Aside from the few, perfectly pleasant books you mention, the landscape is pretty turgid.
Wow. A lot of good comments here. I disagree on Morrison. His Batman run is thought provoking, different, and provides a new stamp on the character.
That and a couple vertigo comics are all that I am really interested in at the moment.
But I would agree on general fatigue. I'm also 30 now and don't feel as excited about comics anymore. The whole retread and "illusion of change" gets to be quite old.
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